I had the privilege of being one of the men that the Red Quest asked to provide input on the manuscript for his book, “Sex Clubs, Non-Monogamy, and Game“. He’s finished the book in part with my input and is now giving the book away for free (downloadable at the link).
It’s a unique book based on his years of experience in the sex club / swinger scene in his city. In the first half of the book he covers why a man would want to include sex clubs as part of his game, and in the second half of the book he shares lots of specific examples from his own dating life.
Personally I haven’t had direct experience with sex clubs. I’ve had FFM threesomes, and I once took a 22 year old I was dating to a sex club here in San Francisco. But we left after 10 minutes, the club was slow and frankly we didn’t like the looks of anyone else there. So I was curious to read Red Quest’s take on this scene and how to integrate it into non-monogamous relationship management.
As I’ve written about here and here, it’s your role as a man to lead your woman. Lead her experience and take her to places she’s never been before. Doing this right I’ve been able to keep the attractive women I want in my life, without having to promise monogamy. Women want to be lead by an exciting lover as a means for them to experience the world. And I can see from “Sex Clubs, Non-Monogamy, and Game” that sex clubs could be part of your larger game in doing this leading…if you had the skills and inclination.
After reading this book, here are the positives I see for bringing your girls to sex clubs:
you frame yourself as top tier lover because you’ve opened her to experiences she’s only fantasized about but would never make happen on her own
her attraction for you can increase as she watches you fuck other girls (preselection at its most primal)
you can leverage her for variety both by swapping her with other couples and also having her recruit other girls for you
the sex club scene in your city becomes a long term “ecosystem” / social circle you can leverage for constantly finding new partners – if you have the social savvy and sex skills to be a top-tier guy in the sex club scene in your city
Here are the downsides I see:
I doubt most guys can pull this off – this is advanced level game and your looks, game, and sex skills need to be on point. You need a strong frame and ability to lead
other guys will try and poach your girl
you have to manage not just your relationship with the girl you bring but your relationship with the other couples you play with
most guys won’t enjoy watching “their” girl fuck other guys…even if it means they get to fuck other girls at the same time
From my very limited experience in San Francisco I’m not convinced there are many attractive women in the sex club scene (I’m picky and prefer petite college aged girls)
I think this is a worthwhile read to any one who’s had some curiosity about the sex club world. There’s value here in reading about Red Quest’s advanced level game in action, even if all you’re looking to do is merge girls you’re already dating into a FFM threesome with you.
A lot of men have been talking about end game (RedQuest | Roy Walker | Troy Francis | Krauser / Jimmy Jambone among others). (addition 1/27: Tom Torero weighs in that there is no end game). The question seems to be, “is being a player all there is?” and “what comes after being a player?”. It seems for many that after 5-10 years in the game the rush of getting yet another notch doesn’t do it any more.
I suspect what this ultimately comes down to is that men want pair-bonding. I’m 44 years old and have personally experienced the full range of types of relationships with women, from same day sport fucks to fuck buddies to harems to girlfriends to my marriage (ended 5 years ago).
From this experience I truly believe that sexual pair-bonding with a woman can’t last more than 3-5 years tops, before your relationship degrades into routine without any real spark. This is how nature intended it: pair up long enough to produce offspring and get them into childhood, then rotate to a new partner to diversify your genes. We can’t get around our DNA.
So I’m at peace with being a player forever. As a man you have to be able to bring new women into your life on an ongoing basis, and pair-bond with them as you see fit.
What fits best for me (every man is different) is having 2-4 regular girls at a time in my life, where I see each once a week. In effect this is a portfolio of girls with whom I pair-bond in different ways for as long as the honeymoon period lasts (“sweet spot” might be a better term), in some cases for years and still going.
What I like about this in effect is I’m always in the honeymoon phase, even as girls eventually come and go. It’s on you as the man to manage these relationships properly and keep them fresh.
With hedonic adaptation our brains gets used to routine. I attribute a portion of my satisfaction with this lifestyle to the fact that I never let these mini relationships get routine. I vary up where we go, what we do, how we fuck every single time. How we lead the dance makes a difference in getting more satisfaction and longevity out of these relationships while they last.
None of these relationships will last “forever” because nothing in life lasts forever. There is no end to this process, just like there is no end to exercise and good nutrition. It’s a part of a healthy life and supports you in your higher mission, whatever that is for you.
This is why we have to constantly game and constantly build value as men. We are not meant to rest in life. We’re meant to strive till we die.
With that set up how could I refuse? For better or worse, here’s my dating model that I prefer. I know men like Nash and Pancake Mouse have different styles. As the strong silent type, this is what works for me. I went on dates with 157 different girls in 2017+2018 and you can see my results here (I closed 61% of these girls that I chose to pursue).
I primarily date from online game. I find it more efficient here in San Francisco than I find daygame, and it allows me to number farm during the day while I’m working and then reserve evenings for the actual dates. This may be an extension of good looking guy game, but I have really good pictures so I find in SF the quality is about the same between online and daygame as well.
I default to a two date model. The first date is usually an hour or so at a nice bar convenient to my place. The second date is dinner at my place (or if she rejects this another drink at another bar nearby).
Since usually the first date is the first time I’m seeing the girl in person, it helps me screen if I really want to go any further with her (of the 157 girls I met up with in 2017+2018 I choose not to pursue 85 of them). I’ll end the date quickly if I’m not in to her with no remorse.
I find the more attracted I am to a girl the more she feels this and reflects it back to me. Girls can feel when you’re not that in to them but trying to fuck them because she just happens to be there.
There are plenty of times when I feel that “it’s on” and so opt to pull the trigger to bounce her to my place on the first date. I don’t plan on it, but it happened for 10% of the girls I opted to pursue, including the Malaysian girl last week.
The two date model has the advantage of reducing the ASD you’ll get verses trying to push for the lay on the first date. I find with my approach although it usually takes two dates to seal the deal, I end up spending less face time with her than it would take to bounce to multiple date venues and also bust through ASD like you often have to in order to get the first date lay.
Mystery said it takes about 7 hours of face time to close a girl, but with a two date model I find it’s often more like 2-3 hours if you do it right. This is because the vacuum between the two dates does some of the work for you. What can I say I’m all about efficiency.
I could write pages on how to do a first date, but a few key points come to mind:
Make her hug you when you meet, start talking to her like you already know her.
Ignore her beauty. I’ve always been good at this naturally, go on a lot of dates so you don’t give a fuck about closing any one particular girl. She needs to feel this.
She will mirror your frame. If you’re attracted it should raise your vibe and she will feel it and it will raise her attraction.
Tease her within the first 20 seconds of meeting – I like to make a playful observation about what she’s wearing.
She may be a bit challenging in the beginning. Usually not shit tests but challenging. Shrug it off and tease / challenge her as appropriate, with your confident masculine vibe. She’ll start to fall under your frame and the rest is downhill from there.
Be sure to sit side by side at a bar or couch so you can kino.
Lead the conversation but ensure she does 70-80% of the talking. Do this by mostly asking questions.
Lean back and be relaxed. Your body language should be confident. The most important thing is your eyes. Make strong eye contact, but at times also look away. You can seduce a woman who doesn’t speak your language purely with body language and eye contact, as I did in Thailand.
For the first 10 minutes do mostly get to know you chit-chat with the occasional tease. This part may need to be higher energy on your part to get things going. You should already start to kino her by touching her hand, or evening interrupting what she says to touch and make a comment about her jewelry. Touch her elbow, knee, etc to emphasize points.
About 10 minutes in start to work in verbal escalations. Fractionate between escalations and normal get to know you chit chat about her family and aspirations. Calibrate how far you push this based on her responses and body langauge. These are questions like:
What’s your guilty pleasure?
What kind of guys do you like?
When was your last significant relationship? What was the sex like?
How do you prefer to cum?
(towards the end) what do you like about me?
As appropriate throw in the occasional (20% of talking) DHV story
Continue to escalate the kino and intensity of eye contact.
Make comments to show you are “woke” and get the “secret society”. My go to comment is how “it’s a double standard that women get judged and it’s wrong. We’re all sexual beings, and it’s a shame society makes women hide it.” This goes a long way to letting them get comfortable with you as the “lover” instead of a beta “provider”.
Be the one to end the conversation around the hour mark. You’re a man in demand and have to go.
She should come away from this first date feeling good from the talking, the kino, and the fractionation of conversation topics. But also wondering if she’s going to see you again because you ended it.
If you do want to see her again text her the next day and pitch date 2 at your place. If you do date 1 right she should happily agree to it, and sex is highly likely. Because you built this bubble with her and then vacuumed for 24 hours or so after before texting her again, she feels your value and is more eager to close the deal. With this two date model you can lose girls if it takes too long between date 1 and date 2, but you also don’t get much ASD on the date 2’s at your place.
I never go for a kiss on the first date because I have found it raises ASD for date 2. The little hamster in her girl brain can justify coming over to your place by saying, “we haven’t even kissed yet, so we’ll probably just do that”. If you’ve kissed her on date 1, she will understand that you will want more than that on date 2, which raises her ASD and makes it less likely she’ll come over. Kissing her on a date when you’re not going to pull the trigger to go all the way also kills some of your mystery and raises ASD and buyer’s remorse.
That’s what I do in a nutshell. Welcome any and all comments you may have below.
My last day in Kuala Lumpur and I scheduled my first date for my 2 day stay here in the afternoon. The texting was good after I demonstrated my frame to her, and she agreed to meet me at my hotel for a drink at 4pm in the afternoon. Knowing this was my last day in town I had to go for the first date lay, but I had a feel that this 21 year old was promising from the texting. I had teased her my saying she has to come with her biggest smile, and she texted me the next day to show me a screenshot of how she put that in her reminders on her phone (“come with a big smile”). Game on.
We met in the lobby and I led her to the bar. She ordered a gin and tonic while I had my normal sparkling water since I prefer not to drink alcohol. More good signs. She was nervous in a good way and I fractionated right away between verbal escalations (“what type of guys do you like?”, “what’s the craziest thing you’ve ever done?”, and “what do you like about me?”) and basic get to know you talk. All the while I also escalated the kino, touching the ring on her hand, touching her earlobe as I noticed out loud she had no earring, and holding her hand to compare how big mine is relative to hers.
She gave me a great opening to set the secret society tone in saying how everyone thought she was innocent when she’s not, and I used the opportunity to talk about how I don’t like the double standard that gets applied to women, where they have to pretend to be good girls and not sexual beings, and that no one should be judged for having sex as it’s a health part of life and we are all sexual people. I truly believe this, and I find this is a key message to convey on every first date and goes a long way in making a girl comfortable in fucking you if the attraction is also there.
After about 45 minutes as she finished most of her drink, I suggested that before she heads out that she try some of the nice dark chocolate I have in my room. “OK” she chirped happily, and up we went. I asked her to take off her shoes and left her alone a few minutes as I used the restroom, and found her standing by the window admiring the city view when I came out. Standing beside her we talked about the view and how short she is to me (150cm to my 191cm), so she stood on the low window still so we were standing face to face, and we started to kiss. It was so on the whole time I slowed things down just a tad to ensure she had enough foreplay and to also pre-empt any ASD that might pop up. None ever did. With ten minutes of making out she was on her knees sucking my dick and then onto the bed to fuck like animals.
A very submissive girl. They seem to know how to find me. She later said she could just tell I was dominant from the start. I used my belt to tie her up as I did her doggy, making her say how she’s my little slut as I fucked her hard (I made her pussy bleed onto the sheets and she wasn’t on her period). I came looking straight in her eyes. It was a great first new girl of the year and a good welcome to Malaysia. We cuddled a bit afterwards and she kept foundling my cock, and in about 20 minutes we went again for round 2. She was too sore to fuck again but gladly volunteered to suck me off and put a lot of heart in to it. Submissive girls love to please.
We didn’t have any chocolate until afterwards when I walked her down to her car with her wearing her cute little sun dress that she came in. It was a sweet ending to a very nice afternoon. The entire date end to end was about two and a half hours. She was off to dinner with family and drinks with friends that night. We’ll likely never see each other again.
This is the secret society and how most girls like to be at least for one phase of their young adult lives. Consequence free sex with a man who won’t judge them and who they can tell can deliver the goods. Be that man.
I’m relaxing here in my Bangkok apartment after getting three new notches in the last week. I’ve got more leads for this trip but I’m not pursuing them hard. I’ve opted to have miss Singapore, one of my regulars, come to town for my last few days to ring in the new year with me.
In many ways this is a good summary of my 2018 with women. At 44 years old I’m having as much sex as I’ve ever had in my life, but compared to 2016 and 2017 it’s been more focused on a handful of regulars that I like, and less on new girls.
2017 was a banner year for me in game when my process finally came together. I started out 2017 losing one of my favorite girls of all time because I accidentally scheduled a date with her best friend, and so I had to start the year building a rotation from scratch and also frankly also deal with the suck of losing a girl that I had such a strong connection with.
By the end of the year I’ve developed a template for what I look for: young, cute, a bit of an outsider, and wanting to explore the world. In this template I’m the man this lucky girls gets to explore the big world with. It’s the right dynamic for me, and I’ve gotten good at finding the right sort of girls and leading them down this path.
Here are my stats and highlights from 2017:
79 first dates (mostly from online dating)
41 (52%) of these I chose not to pursue
12 (15%) I pursued but couldn’t close
26 (33%) I closed on the 1st date (4), 2nd date (20) or 3rd date (2)
Average age of a new girl was 23 (I turned 43 in mid 2017)
In my average month I slept with 5 different girls
I also had 3 carryover girls from 2016
I had sex 188 times in total, 63% was with four girls
dating a former miss Ukraine I met from nightgame (didn’t close her) while out partying with CMQ and Goldmund
the 19 year old Singaporean track runner
the 19 year old Stanford student
starting things off with “Little me” (18 when we met) who I’m still seeing regularly and is my current favorite
Trips to Miami, Tokyo, NYC, Singapore, and Vietnam
With that background here are my stats and highlights form 2018:
78 first dates (again mostly online dating)
44 (56%) of these I chose not to pursue
15 (19%) I pursued but couldn’t close
18 (24%) I closed on the 1st date (3), 2nd date (13), or 3rd date (2)
1 (1% – Miss Puffy Jacket) are still in play as of this writing
Average age of a new girl was 22 (I turned 44 in mid 2018)
In my average month I slept with 4 different girls
I also had 4 carryover girls from 2017
I had sex 192 times in total, 66% was with three girls
Closing the Singaporean girl and Miss Artsy within 3 days of each other. These are two of my top 10 favorite all time and I continue to see them regularly
3 new girls in 3 days during NYC trip, 3 new girls in 5 days during Bangkok trip
Trips to NYC, Seattle, Portland, San Diego, Las Vegas, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Singapore, Cambodia, Bangkok, and Malaysia
So maybe I’ve hit a plateau in 2018, or maybe having 3 of my 10 all time favorites in my regular rotation at once slowed me down in terms of pursuing new girls. I think I’ve gotten pickier, and have chosen not to pursue marginal girls that I would have in the past just to get the notch. Instead I had my regular girls and new girls came from trips or on occasion when I found one to my liking or felt like some variety.
In addition for the Hong Kong, Singapore, and now for part of the Bangkok trip I’ve chosen to see miss Singapore instead of pursue new girls the whole time (I still closed a few girls on these trips). I had other work trips to several other cities where I didn’t game or fuck that entire trip, and I think that slowed down the notch rate as well.
Could I get better results from daygame? Maybe in another city, but I find it hugely time consuming. I’ve done 25 approaches from it this year and have one open lead back home from it that I may still close.
What I am most happy about is the stability I have with my three regulars. Close connections with each in their own unique way, and all three know the deal and that I see other girls. They are 20, 21, and 29 respectively. All have known my age from the start and all also know that I see other girls. I’ve had no drama with any of them, which again tells me my frame is strong and I’ve internalized the skills of converting girls to me and keeping them happy in my rotation.
2019 for me will be about deciding if I want to stay in San Francisco or move to another city, and also pursue other goals besides new women.
Relationships are like salsa dancing. As the man you have to lead, but it’s a partnership between the both of you. It also take much longer for a man to learn salsa than a woman, just like relationships. But we have no choice but to do it.
The first time I went salsa dancing was on a 2nd date with a very cute Czech girl. We got a little drunk, and she said she wanted to salsa (she was good). In my inexperience I said “sure”. When in doubt I say “yes”, but in retrospect I should have avoided putting myself into a situation where I was a beginning in front of a girl I was interested in.
At the club I didn’t have any inhibitions and did my best to lead by watching the other couples. If you’ve never danced salsa, the man leads and decides every twirl and step. He completely controls the woman’s experiences. She gets to twirl around and he looks like h’s just doing a few steps, but the realty is she follows his movements and interpretation of the music completely. The entire quality of her experience is on him. It takes years for a man to get good, in part because even an experienced woman can’t teach him. Whereas a woman can learn in a few sessions because she simply needs to respond to her partner.
So back to my salsa date, I did a fair job faking it for a man who had never even seen salsa dancing before. but eventually she craved the real thing and I let her dance with a short old guy in his 60’s. What a difference it was, and she loved it. Not surprisingly, I never did sleep with her. But I saw first hand how dating needs to be. We as men must lead and take the time to learn how to lead right. We can only learn through experience with some help from other men. It’s an art just like dancing. Maybe over time I’ll share how I’ve learned to do it right.